1995 Dodge Cummins 4x4 WVO conversion, FPHE, 3 valves

A description and pics of your SVO WVO Vegetable Oil conversion, help the next person who gets that model.

Moderators: SunWizard, coachgeo

Postby SunWizard » Fri Apr 11, 2008 3:38 pm

No need to drill another hole, I just put them through one of the existing rubber grommets where other wires were going through.
YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary.
95 Dodge Cummins 4x4 SVO WVO conversion.
81 Mercedes 300D- stock and happy on V80/D20 blend.
Low fossil net zero house- 100% solar power and heat.
SunWizard
Site Admin
 
Posts: 1723
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2006 2:53 pm
Location: N. Colorado

Postby cgoodwin » Sun Apr 13, 2008 1:00 pm

I must disagree with the suposition that having a system under vacuum is more problematic or that there are more filters available for pressure applications. Almost all racors filters are designed for vacuum side applications and most diesel engines have a fuel system which operates under vacuum. Detroit Diesels in just about every bus and truck, CAT, Cummins, etc are all vacuum systems where the lift pump draws from the tank rather than having a pump in the tank.

Many other applications have a filter that is under pressure as well as a fuel prefilter under vacuum, the Detroit is a good example where the lift pump sucks fuel from the tank and prefilter, then pushes it through a filter and into the heads.

The high number of vacuum leaks found in the veg oil crowd is more likely due to the fact that we are dealing with hobbyists who have moderate skill levels, are installing systems made from the hardware store, are not following basic mechanical principals (replacing crush washers) or all of the above.

I do agree that pulling a more viscous liquid increases the vacuum required to move the fluid and this increases the possibility of leaks at improper joints, however, if the leak is air you loose power and know you have a leak, if the leak is fuel under pressure you pump your fuel onto the road and find out because the gauge is dropping faster than you expected. Properly heating the fuel, the lines and the filter substancially reduces vacuum by lowering the viscosity of the liquid allowing it to be moved more freely.

My dodge (1998 last of the p7100's) is plumbed with 3 valves allowing for a controlled loop, where the diesel returns to the diesel tank but the VO is looped back into the fuel system post filter and pre heat exchanger while running and returns to the VO tank during purge. This greatly reduces system vacuum because only the fuel being consumed is being drawn from the tank, the slow moving fuel spends more time in the heated line, heated filter and is cycled many times through the final fuel heat exchanger. In addition the ability to return to tank during purge prevents backpressuring the filter, provides very rapid purges and allows for air to be purged from the system easily via the return line.

My truck is also completely plumbed with JIC fittings allowing it to be taken apart and put back together easily and removing most of the common points of leakage (improperly tightened hose clamps, damaged rubber lines, improperly sealed or tightened fittings).
cgoodwin
 
Posts: 3
Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 12:38 pm

Postby SunWizard » Sun Apr 13, 2008 4:49 pm

cgoodwin wrote:I must disagree with the suposition that having a system under vacuum is more problematic or that there are more filters available for pressure applications. Almost all racors filters are designed for vacuum side applications and most diesel engines have a fuel system which operates under vacuum. Detroit Diesels in just about every bus and truck, CAT, Cummins, etc are all vacuum systems where the lift pump draws from the tank rather than having a pump in the tank.

The Cummins,Mercedes, Ford (International), GM and most others I have seen have the main filter under pressure, they often have a coarse prefilter is all before the lift pump. Sucking through a prefilter which is usually around 100-300 micron or more doesn't create much vacuum. Sucking through a 10 micron or less can create very high vacuum, especially with thick VO. Can you list any of the "most diesel engines have a fuel system which operates under vacuum" that have the main filter under vacuum? Thats what I am referring to.
YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary.
95 Dodge Cummins 4x4 SVO WVO conversion.
81 Mercedes 300D- stock and happy on V80/D20 blend.
Low fossil net zero house- 100% solar power and heat.
SunWizard
Site Admin
 
Posts: 1723
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2006 2:53 pm
Location: N. Colorado

Postby cgoodwin » Sun Apr 13, 2008 7:08 pm

Any marine motor using a Racor filter as they are all designed for suction side application, I would say that this covers 90% of the medium sized marine market. All of the motorhomes I have worked on with Cummins motors, CATs have a filter on the suction side. While rare in the automotive world AUDI, VW and others do it as well.

Having a filter on the suction side does increase vacuum on the system between the pump and the filter, but not from the filter to the tank which is usually the longest run.

I think that if you consider the number of diesels in boats between 20' and 100', the number of VW, AUDI and other motors out there compared to the number of US built medium duty pickup trucks with diesels, "Most" might be accurate but my point was not to argue about how many engines have a filter on the suction side, it was to point out that many do. If we are looking for "most" then I would say that "most" engines have spark plugs....
cgoodwin
 
Posts: 3
Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 12:38 pm

Postby hheynow » Sun Apr 13, 2008 9:59 pm

SunWizard wrote: Can you list any of the "most diesel engines have a fuel system which operates under vacuum" that have the main filter under vacuum? Thats what I am referring to.


MINE! The 94-97 Powerstrokes have a dual function fuel pump. It sucks WVO & B99 from both tanks through their own Racor R90T filter (each with its own vacuum gauge) then through the fuel pressure regulator and back to the same fuel pump which supplies each head (under pressure). The 99+ Super Duties have a fully pressurized fuel pump.
FOR SALE: 1997 Ford F-350 7.3L PSD - Plant Drive kit
1984 Mercedes Euro 300D NA - Custom two tank
Running on used plant oil and biodiesel since May 2006
hheynow
 
Posts: 147
Joined: Wed Mar 05, 2008 9:10 pm
Location: California

Postby SunWizard » Sun Apr 13, 2008 10:33 pm

hheynow wrote:MINE! The 94-97 Powerstrokes have a dual function fuel pump. It sucks WVO & B99 from both tanks through their own Racor R90T filter (each with its own vacuum gauge) then through the fuel pressure regulator and back to the same fuel pump which supplies each head (under pressure). The 99+ Super Duties have a fully pressurized fuel pump.

Sure any can be modified to put the filter under vac, but did yours have a Racor with a vac. guage stock? The powerstrokes I have seen have the main (stock) filter under pressure in the galley. We are talking about the stock filter systems.
YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary.
95 Dodge Cummins 4x4 SVO WVO conversion.
81 Mercedes 300D- stock and happy on V80/D20 blend.
Low fossil net zero house- 100% solar power and heat.
SunWizard
Site Admin
 
Posts: 1723
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2006 2:53 pm
Location: N. Colorado

Postby Burbarian » Mon Apr 14, 2008 5:14 am

Freightliner heavy duty long-haul trucks using Cummins DCC and M11, and the older NT855/NH220/250 engines also have the filter on the suction side. Same with most older model CAT heavy equipment and industrial engines. Don't know if they retained that practice with the newer and lighter models.
1987 GMC Suburban 6.2L V8 IDI
1985 Merc 300TD
1968 CAT D4D 3304 dozer
1971 Waldon 4100 loader
1981 IHI 30F excavator
1995 Changfa 195 w/ ST 10kw genset
Burbarian
 
Posts: 195
Joined: Wed Mar 05, 2008 12:14 pm
Location: Vermont

Postby hheynow » Mon Apr 14, 2008 10:59 am

SunWizard wrote:
hheynow wrote:MINE! The 94-97 Powerstrokes have a dual function fuel pump. It sucks WVO & B99 from both tanks through their own Racor R90T filter (each with its own vacuum gauge) then through the fuel pressure regulator and back to the same fuel pump which supplies each head (under pressure). The 99+ Super Duties have a fully pressurized fuel pump.

Sure any can be modified to put the filter under vac, but did yours have a Racor with a vac. guage stock? The powerstrokes I have seen have the main (stock) filter under pressure in the galley. We are talking about the stock filter systems.


The stock fuel filter for the '94-'97 (Racor INF4595 which I no longer use) is on the vacuum side. There is a vacuum sensor on the stock fuel bowl that will illuminate on the dash when it's time to change filters. Then after it's filtered it goes through the FPR to build pressure then back to the fuel pump to each head. So deleting my stock fuel filter and adding on two Racors (Vormax and rear filter) between each tank and the fuel pump isn't changing anything but the filter's location.
FOR SALE: 1997 Ford F-350 7.3L PSD - Plant Drive kit
1984 Mercedes Euro 300D NA - Custom two tank
Running on used plant oil and biodiesel since May 2006
hheynow
 
Posts: 147
Joined: Wed Mar 05, 2008 9:10 pm
Location: California

Postby Freeman » Tue Apr 15, 2008 8:22 pm

I may have already posted this, if so, sorry

Sunwizard

Thank you for your last piece of advice, with out your diagrams I would not be doing this and without your advice I would be making lots of foolish decisions. I am about finished my conversion and have a few question.

1. I'm not sure the proper way to get VO into the fuel lines. Do I take the last hose (the one closest to the IP) off and pump the lift pump tell VO drips out? Also, could any air trapped in the line between the diesel filter and the IP be a problem?

2. You may not have an answer for this one because you used HIH and I am using HOH. I have read that heating diesel fuel is not a good thing to do. a few sections of fuel line share Diesel and VO. Should I or should I not insulate these lengths of fuel line together with coolant lines?


Diesel Craft question

3. What is the connection/fitting called that makes a threaded hole for the pipe on the bottom of the 55 gallon drum?

4. Concerning your mobile diesel craft rig, in the photos it looks as though you have a tube sucking VO out of the drum and cycling through the diesel craft rather than a pipe threaded out the bottom, is this so?why?

Thanks

Free
Freeman
 
Posts: 20
Joined: Wed Mar 05, 2008 10:55 pm

Postby SunWizard » Tue Apr 15, 2008 8:52 pm

Freeman wrote:1. I'm not sure the proper way to get VO into the fuel lines. Do I take the last hose (the one closest to the IP) off and pump the lift pump tell VO drips out? Also, could any air trapped in the line between the diesel filter and the IP be a problem?

Yes that would work. I pressurized my VO tank with compressed air to force the VO through all the lines and filters. A small amount of trapped air in the diesel isn't a problem since it has a return to tank.
2. You may not have an answer for this one because you used HIH and I am using HOH. I have read that heating diesel fuel is not a good thing to do. a few sections of fuel line share Diesel and VO. Should I or should I not insulate these lengths of fuel line together with coolant lines?

HoH transfers so little heat it won't overheat your diesel in a few sections whether insulated or not.
3. What is the connection/fitting called that makes a threaded hole for the pipe on the bottom of the 55 gallon drum?

Bulkhead fitting.
4. Concerning your mobile diesel craft rig, in the photos it looks as though you have a tube sucking VO out of the drum and cycling through the diesel craft rather than a pipe threaded out the bottom, is this so?why?

Yes. Because with the closed top drum it doesn't dewater very well anyway so I ran it that way only on VO that had little water. I did it that way since having the barrel drain on the bottom (my usual CF rig) makes it less portable. I think I might use the original CF rig even for on the road since it dewaters so much better, by making a rugged stand for the barrel.
YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary.
95 Dodge Cummins 4x4 SVO WVO conversion.
81 Mercedes 300D- stock and happy on V80/D20 blend.
Low fossil net zero house- 100% solar power and heat.
SunWizard
Site Admin
 
Posts: 1723
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2006 2:53 pm
Location: N. Colorado

Postby Freeman » Sun Apr 20, 2008 2:07 pm

Sunwizard

I have a return line question. Where is the best place to tee in the 2nd return line (the one that use to go into the diesel filter). Or rather, I already teed it in very close to the valve. I am ignorant of fuel return flow rate. Concerning purge time, does the IP return line and the 2nd return line flow at a similar rate?

Also, I just ordered a Dieselraft oc-20 Centrifuge. I need to get a gear-pump and motor next. I am looking at the one from McMaster you posted on your thread and this one at granger
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/items/6PA31
The only difference I can see between them is the one from McMaster has bronze gears and a 1/2hp motor and Grangers has Steel gears and a 1/3hp motor. Do you have an opinion about which one would work better?


Free
Freeman
 
Posts: 20
Joined: Wed Mar 05, 2008 10:55 pm

Postby SunWizard » Sun Apr 20, 2008 8:23 pm

Freeman wrote:I have a return line question. Where is the best place to tee in the 2nd return line (the one that use to go into the diesel filter). Or rather, I already teed it in very close to the valve. I am ignorant of fuel return flow rate. Concerning purge time, does the IP return line and the 2nd return line flow at a similar rate?

The IP returns a lot of fuel >1gpm. The injector drain is just an occasional drip. Tee them together anywhere.
Also, I just ordered a Dieselraft oc-20 Centrifuge. I need to get a gear-pump and motor next. I am looking at the one from McMaster you posted on your thread and this one at granger
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/items/6PA31
The only difference I can see between them is the one from McMaster has bronze gears and a 1/2hp motor and Grangers has Steel gears and a 1/3hp motor. Do you have an opinion about which one would work better?

They both would work the same.
YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary.
95 Dodge Cummins 4x4 SVO WVO conversion.
81 Mercedes 300D- stock and happy on V80/D20 blend.
Low fossil net zero house- 100% solar power and heat.
SunWizard
Site Admin
 
Posts: 1723
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2006 2:53 pm
Location: N. Colorado

Postby leftcoastjeff » Mon Apr 21, 2008 6:53 pm

gandjwhite said;
I'm heading down to Belize in about 1 1/2 months.

quite a task, hope this is not too far off topic but,
Everything I've eaten in MX. is fried in animal fats, good thing it's so @#$% hot down there. unfortunatly I'm vegan that loves fish."Why does this fish taste like pork and that one's beef?" I found out quick!
I do love Baja
LCjeff
'87F-250 stock, minus that pesky water seporator/air inlet, bone stock for now.

Thomas Edison says it best, “Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work”.
leftcoastjeff
 
Posts: 196
Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2008 6:35 pm
Location: Monterey, cal.

Postby gandjwhite » Tue Apr 22, 2008 2:03 pm

Hey Sunwizard and others:

In spite of your advice to have my system installed professionally, I've not found anyone nearby to do that and I'm not going to travel all over the country plus pay $1500 to $2000 to have it done. So, I'm just going to go for it. I'm the type of guy who can do anything when I put my mind to it and figure it out. I've been researching all of this long enough now to get the basic idea. I'm just not sure how different it will be once I start in on it.

So, since my last post I've now purchased a 96 Dodge Ram 2500. I've got a 20 Gallon Trekker tank coming and a VegMax filter. I'm also considering putting on a FPHE. I'm looking at your schematic here and it looks doable; however, I'm trying to understand a few things about it.

1) The info. I have on the VegMax filter is that it needs to go on before the lift pump otherwise something happens with the fuel in the lift pump and the filter doesn't work right. Should I just ignore that and put it on after the lift pump? Or is there some way I can use this filter in your system?

2) Could you explain a little better what you are talking about with the cutting of the drain thing on the IP return and the tee...

3) Since I'll always be in hot weather, could I get by without the FPHE? (I'll have a heated tank, fuel line, and filter.)

Thanks!
gandjwhite
 
Posts: 21
Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2008 5:17 pm
Location: Sonora, CA

Postby gandjwhite » Tue Apr 22, 2008 2:21 pm

Freeman:

Are you following SunWizard's system EXACTLY?

What have you found to be the most challenging? Otherwise, would you say it has been relatively simple?
gandjwhite
 
Posts: 21
Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2008 5:17 pm
Location: Sonora, CA

PreviousNext

Return to Veggie Oil Conversion Vehicle Database

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests

cron