1995 Dodge Cummins 4x4 WVO conversion, FPHE, 3 valves

A description and pics of your SVO WVO Vegetable Oil conversion, help the next person who gets that model.

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Postby gandjwhite » Tue Apr 22, 2008 2:22 pm

Oh, I forgot to ask...

The boat valves are only 1/4". Is that too restrictive?
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Postby SunWizard » Tue Apr 22, 2008 6:29 pm

gandjwhite wrote:So, since my last post I've now purchased a 96 Dodge Ram 2500. I've got a 20 Gallon Trekker tank coming and a VegMax filter. I'm also considering putting on a FPHE. I'm looking at your schematic here and it looks doable; however, I'm trying to understand a few things about it.

1) The info. I have on the VegMax filter is that it needs to go on before the lift pump otherwise something happens with the fuel in the lift pump and the filter doesn't work right. Should I just ignore that and put it on after the lift pump? Or is there some way I can use this filter in your system?

"something happens" is too vague to understand what they are talking about. I checked their website, and it appears the vegmax filter element isn't rated for pressure, so thats why it must go on the vacuum side. You can do that but it means you will replace elements more often, and need to be more careful since vacuum leaks are harder to find than pressure side leaks. I prefer the $10 filter head that I used and linked at my top post instead of a $215 one. Mine has been fine down to -10F, which is the coldest we have got to yet. Any changes you do will require careful re-thinking of everything else I have engineered, it works together as a system.
2) Could you explain a little better what you are talking about with the cutting of the drain thing on the IP return and the tee...

The diagram is better than any words. You would need to ask a specific question since I can't explain it better than this from the 1st post:
"Note in the diagram, you have to cut the existing injector drain manifold (small line) coming out of the top of the stock fuel filter and cap that line, and tee the injector drain line into the IP return line, so the small amount of VO in there gets sent back to the proper tank. "
3) Since I'll always be in hot weather, could I get by without the FPHE? (I'll have a heated tank, fuel line, and filter.)

No. The FPHE is important since it provides far more heat than the tiny amount provided by your other parts. You shouldn't heat the tank, just the pickup.
YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary.
95 Dodge Cummins 4x4 SVO WVO conversion.
81 Mercedes 300D- stock and happy on V80/D20 blend.
Low fossil net zero house- 100% solar power and heat.
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Postby SunWizard » Tue Apr 22, 2008 6:37 pm

gandjwhite wrote:Oh, I forgot to ask...
The boat valves are only 1/4". Is that too restrictive?

Thats 1/4 NPT pipe thread, which measures about 3/8 which has been fine, its the same size as my fuel lines. Good to -10F with hauling 4000 pound loads up steep 4wd roads, thats a good flow test.
YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary.
95 Dodge Cummins 4x4 SVO WVO conversion.
81 Mercedes 300D- stock and happy on V80/D20 blend.
Low fossil net zero house- 100% solar power and heat.
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Postby gandjwhite » Wed Apr 23, 2008 12:42 pm

SunWizard:

Great! Your info. here is excellent. I'm getting really excited to get my parts in and start.

I've decided to return the VegMax filter and get the one you have. My mistake! Now I get to pay 25% restocking fee plus shipping. I guess that's the price you pay for ignorance! (But, I'll still end up saving a lot!)

I notice that your return valve looks different from the other two valves in the picture. Is that a different valve?

Also, could you explain what kinds of hose you used? Did you purchase locally or find a good deal online?

Thanks
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Veg oil coming from Fuel Drain Manifold to OEM fuel filter

Postby Ben Howard RD » Wed Apr 23, 2008 12:46 pm

Please refer to page 4 of the following link: http://dodge.justanswer.com/uploads/mol ... Filter.pdf

There is some fuel/veg oil that is used to cool the pump and injectors that drains into the Fuel Drain Manifold which returns the fuel/veg oil to the fuel filter/water separator (refer to link above).

Sun, your diagram does not show what to do with this returning vegetable oil. Also, shouldn't we be avoiding vegetable oil going into the OEM fuel filter?

Thanks,
Michael[/img]
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Postby SunWizard » Wed Apr 23, 2008 1:18 pm

gandjwhite wrote:I've decided to return the VegMax filter and get the one you have. My mistake! Now I get to pay 25% restocking fee plus shipping. I guess that's the price you pay for ignorance! (But, I'll still end up saving a lot!)

You could also try selling it for a little off list on these and infopop forums classifieds.
I notice that your return valve looks different from the other two valves in the picture. Is that a different valve?

Yes but its just the handle thats different, and I like the big handle ones better.
Also, could you explain what kinds of hose you used? Did you purchase locally or find a good deal online?

I used Gates 30R7 rated fuel hose from autozone. Fuel injection hose is even better but more expensive, same place.
YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary.
95 Dodge Cummins 4x4 SVO WVO conversion.
81 Mercedes 300D- stock and happy on V80/D20 blend.
Low fossil net zero house- 100% solar power and heat.
SunWizard
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Re: Veg oil coming from Fuel Drain Manifold to OEM fuel filt

Postby SunWizard » Wed Apr 23, 2008 1:22 pm

Ben Howard RD wrote:Sun, your diagram does not show what to do with this returning vegetable oil. Also, shouldn't we be avoiding vegetable oil going into the OEM fuel filter?

Yes my diagram shows the injector drains, coming off of the 6 injectors, its the lines above the part labeled Injector pump, connected to the return. And the text explains (now about 4x in this thread:) "Note in the diagram, you have to cut the existing injector drain manifold (small line) coming out of the top of the stock fuel filter and cap that line, and tee the injector drain line into the IP return line, so the small amount of VO in there gets sent back to the proper tank. "
YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary.
95 Dodge Cummins 4x4 SVO WVO conversion.
81 Mercedes 300D- stock and happy on V80/D20 blend.
Low fossil net zero house- 100% solar power and heat.
SunWizard
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Postby Ben Howard RD » Wed Apr 23, 2008 1:45 pm

Thanks for the quick reply, boy do I feel like a Bonehead :) Also, is it possible to see a picture of the top of the OEM fuel filter on your setup?
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Postby SunWizard » Wed Apr 23, 2008 1:57 pm

Ben Howard RD wrote:Also, is it possible to see a picture of the top of the OEM fuel filter on your setup?

No since its hidden away a pic wouldn't show anything useful.
YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary.
95 Dodge Cummins 4x4 SVO WVO conversion.
81 Mercedes 300D- stock and happy on V80/D20 blend.
Low fossil net zero house- 100% solar power and heat.
SunWizard
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Postby canolafunola » Wed Apr 30, 2008 7:58 pm

I have the strongest lift pump made, a piston driven off the cam, and if a filter even begins to clog it becomes obvious by lack of power, and on my fuel pressure guage. I haven't had any elements or hoses blow.


A filter clog in a vaccum system will exhibit the same symptom as well and you use a vacuum gauge instead. I see no advantage of one versus the other. Blowing out hoses can never happen in a vacuum system, only pressure. Do you agree?
93 Gulfstream RV w Cummins 5.9 diesel pusher
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Postby canolafunola » Wed Apr 30, 2008 8:05 pm

I am curious where this info came from:
And there are less choices of filters that will work properly under vacuum.


I spoke to a Baldwin filter engineer today. All Baldwin fuel filters can be operated under vacuum or pressure.
93 Gulfstream RV w Cummins 5.9 diesel pusher
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Postby SunWizard » Wed Apr 30, 2008 8:23 pm

canolafunola wrote:A filter clog in a vaccum system will exhibit the same symptom as well and you use a vacuum gauge instead. I see no advantage of one versus the other. Blowing out hoses can never happen in a vacuum system, only pressure. Do you agree?

Yes. Blowing hoses is not common, I haven't heard of it happening. Disadvantages from my post on page 1:
"I don't like vacuum as well since with filters and many more connections under vacuum, more trouble with air leaks someday down the road, which is a very common problem. I have read dozens of threads of trying to find air leaks on the vacuum side of the lift pump. "
Its not easy to find air leaks, while on the pressure side any leak shows up as a drip.
YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary.
95 Dodge Cummins 4x4 SVO WVO conversion.
81 Mercedes 300D- stock and happy on V80/D20 blend.
Low fossil net zero house- 100% solar power and heat.
SunWizard
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Posts: 1720
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2006 2:53 pm
Location: N. Colorado

Postby SunWizard » Wed Apr 30, 2008 8:41 pm

canolafunola wrote:I am curious where this info came from:
And there are less choices of filters that will work properly under vacuum.


That comes from that the stock filter on most vehicles is under pressure, so the replacement filters are designed to the same specs. Most filters are only reinforced with metal mesh on one side of the paper element, designed for either pressure or vacuum. Many people don't know this and are using filters the wrong way, which can lead to filter failure which isn't even visible unless you carefully cut open and examine each old filter. For example, many are taking their stock filters on a Dodge or Mercedes and putting them under vacuum which they are not designed for.

Another example is the Racor filters which are designed only for vacuum and their specs carry warnings about that, yet many put them under pressure.

Here is a thread about some baldwin filters sold by NAPA having glue failure with hot VO which would be very bad:
Fuel filter cartridges not suitable for hot fuel oil.
YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary.
95 Dodge Cummins 4x4 SVO WVO conversion.
81 Mercedes 300D- stock and happy on V80/D20 blend.
Low fossil net zero house- 100% solar power and heat.
SunWizard
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Posts: 1720
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2006 2:53 pm
Location: N. Colorado

Postby canolafunola » Wed Apr 30, 2008 9:14 pm

"No problems with Goldenrod brand filters, only the NAPA equivalent (made by Baldwin, to NAPA specs, which obviously don't include hot SVO). "

Interesting. I wonder what the NAPA spec is? I spoke to Baldwin engineering approx 3 years ago on their fuel filters and have this in my notes:

"Baldwin fuel filters use Plastisol adhesive cured at 400 F"
93 Gulfstream RV w Cummins 5.9 diesel pusher
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Postby Ben Howard RD » Mon May 05, 2008 1:48 pm

Is it ok to use a 2nd FPHE instead of the heated fuel line before the transfer pump?
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