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Improved Mileage and fuel economy (MPG) with gasoline blends
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BurnVeg.com Forums Forum Index -> Single Tank Systems and Blending

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coachgeo

Joined: 06 Mar 2008
Posts: 486
Location: North Texas

Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 10:53 am Post subject:

bio_cowboy wrote:

....the point of this forum was to acquire anecdotal support of the value of blending VO with gasoline,...

The anecdotal support all in one place is a good idea.

Just be aware that I don't think anyone is going to be able to stop folk from picking apart anecdotal or slightly better data. It's just the nature of man. Especially the very detailed anal type... anecdotal just infurates them cause its just not detailed enough to fit into their comfortable box of works/dont work or right/wrong. Thats not an insult... just human behaviour.

Look forward to the info you and others dig up. (Anecdotal or not)

Look forward to what theories we can pull out of it

In the other thread look forward to figuring out how to test these theories.
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Life; It's all in the Balance

David

Joined: 06 Mar 2008
Posts: 271
Location: Sydney Australia

Posted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 4:04 am Post subject:

bio_cowboy wrote:

Thank-you John, it seems that you are one of the few who get that the point of this forum was to acquire anecdotal support of the value of blending VO with gasoline, and not to bury those few anecdotes in a mountain of offensive and irrelevant remarks. With the offensive response that this forum has received we can expect that not many people who blend gasoline with VO will be posting here.

The problem that seems apparent in acquiring any meaningful dialog in support of blending gasoline with VO on the various bio-fuels forums, is the dialog is almost always buried under a mountain of offensive remarks. Also, as I am sure you know, most people who advocate or practice blending gasoline with VO are almost always banned from most bio-fuels forums. So, the lack of information on the subject is a setup.

Here we go, the same old conspiracy theories of RUG blending " Dialog" being undermined, people being rude or offensive, people being banned .... yada, yada yada. Rolling Eyes

The biggest DETRIMENT and HANDBRAKE to blending discussions right now is the obsessive lunatics who try to shove it down everyone's throat on every forum at every chance they get and then get all upset and cry like baby's when someone says something they don't like.

I believe in water injection and talk about it often but I don't go out of my way with single minded posts " To create meaningful Dialog" about it every 2 minutes on every forum I can find. I post my knowledge and experience with it when and if it may be relevant and if it helps someone and they want to give it a try, fantastic.
If they don't, then what the hell do I care? It works for me and if others don't want to take advantage of it, no skin off my nose.
If I went on about it like some do with RUG blending, I expect everyone would get fed up in short order, give me some stick about it and if I went on anally about the forum moderators being against it and trying to discourage talk on the subject, then I expect I would be banned as well.
Rational people would of course see the real problem would be with MY behavior and nothing to do with hidden agenda's surrounding the subject matter!

I blend and with RUG more than anything, but frankly I'm getting absoloutley sick to death of all this crap from people trying to promote it that are actually putting more people off the idea with their incessant whining and conspiracy theories than helping the cause their obsessive compulsion aims to help.

How far would veg fuels be if everyone using it was hell bent on convincing everyone else that Bio , Svo or blending was the be all and end all of alternate fuels and thought anyone that didn't see their views as gospel was some sort of enemy?

It is probably for reasons like this that people don't want to post about blending with rug, just a shame some of the manic obsessives are so blinded by their unhealthy need to shove it down every ones throat, they can't see it.

Frankly, I don't give a rats about economy when blending with rug. If the economy was half I could get with diesel it would still be cheap so why would I worry?
I am convinced in the non scientific tests I have done that I get better power and performance when adding a small percentage of RUG to WVO than on WVO alone.

As such, I'll continue to benefit from my tests and conclusions and if other people want to try it for themselves, great, if they don't believe me or are not willing to test it for themselves, that's great too! Very Happy

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I don't give a damn about what might or could happen until a significant group of people can tell me it HAS happened to them.
Until then, it's just more endless gloom and doom Veg folk law.

SunWizard
Site Admin

Joined: 11 Dec 2006
Posts: 1176
Location: N. Colorado

Posted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 9:45 am Post subject:

David wrote:

I agree with that!

Quote:

Frankly, I don't give a rats about economy when blending with rug. If the economy was half I could get with diesel it would still be cheap so why would I worry?

Because that would mean you are getting half the power as well, which I wouldn't tolerate, especially on my underpowered non-turbo 300D. I notice the power drop considerably at 20% RUG blends, as you also noted in another thread, and as Mercedes notes in its manual.
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YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary.
95 Dodge Cummins 4x4 +87 300TD Running on B100 and 2 tank WVO.
81 Mercedes 300D- stock and happy on V80/D20 blend.
Low fossil house- 100% solar/wind power, 90% solar heated.

mixelpix

Joined: 14 Dec 2008
Posts: 29

Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 1:01 am Post subject:

240Volvo wrote:

Thanks for posting this info, but I think that the problem is that anecdotal information is that it is not reliable.

Hi 240,

I'd go a step further and suggest that anecdotal information and second hand testimonial are at best conjecture. More that likely i see them utilized in marketing ploys by capitalists, skullduggerists, provocateurs and everyones favorite, the speculators.

Is your 240 a 123 or a 115?

Nice ride either way : D

Best,
-Patrick

John Galt

Joined: 04 Mar 2008
Posts: 431
Location: North of 60°

Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 1:39 am Post subject:

**************** Last edited by John Galt on Mon Dec 15, 2008 9:23 pm; edited 3 times in total

mixelpix

Joined: 14 Dec 2008
Posts: 29

Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 1:50 am Post subject:

SunWizard wrote:

I notice the power drop considerably at 20% RUG blends, as you also noted in another thread, and as Mercedes notes in its manual.

Hi SunWizard,

Any chance you are hanging out over at the M-B club of America's alt. fuels forum or a member of MBCA? Their magazine "The Star" has had some great articles recently on the new BlueTecs and the older 123 models. Of note, they recently published some great stuff about testing the injector pumps for wear and tear while ULSD fueling.

I'll post it if I can find it (slow modem Sad

) but Mercedes-Benz regularly updates their literature to address their older models which were designed for fluids of a different era, from rear diff fluids to coolants, synthetic lube oils, cleaning products and fuels. God bless, 'em ;^)

I bring it up cause they no longer recommend up to 30% gasoline fueling in extreme winter conditions or emergencies for their diesels. Says so in my manual too, but I find that even 10% R.U.G. (E blends or other) produces noticeable power/economy loss and engine vibration when I fuel with ULSD. With VO it takes up to 15% to make any egregious rattling noises but feels punchier off the line. I dunno about you but I love "flooring" that thing in "L" with kickdown, LoL!!! I am sure you are familiar with the raw thrill of a fully governed fuel injector and an oversized tactor gear Very Happy

If anyone driving a Mercedes-Benz, new used old or stolen ( Laughing

), ever gets stuck on the road - be it from over fueling with gasoline or simply running out of fuel, you can call mercedes benz USA for free 24/7 roadside assistance.

1-800-FOR-MERC

For me personally they have arranged for a customer rep (usually a contracted tow company) to bring out a can of ether aerosol when my n/a 123 was particularly unhappy @ over 8,000 feet and under 20F... They have delivered me a replacement M-B (excellent CCA!) battery when the old Interstate died out (non-disparaging - the batt was 10+ yrs old when I bought the car and still worked for two years!) And I have heard lots of other wonderful reports.

One caveat, however, with their service - which is fabulous. Often times the tow companies they contract - especially in rural areas with little competition - are frustratingly unfamiliar with Benz chassis considerations. If you are ever getting a 115 or a 123 (any M-B i think?) towed more than two miles on flat road, wait for them to bring a flatbed truck. I have seen several - one beautifully pristine manual '77 240D in particular : ( - benzs get their pulleys removed after jostling around on a tow truck. It is in the M-B sub-contract that they bring a flatbed, but once you let them put it on the bed and they drive away no court in the world will rule on your behalf should your engine be catastrophically compromised. Also, it is no fun to get those pulleys swapped out!

Best,
-Patrick

p.s. was in Laramie, WY last Winter at the Motel 6 (classy, i know...) and the car had driven across country like a champ but would not start!! I even had a hair dryer with me but my cord wasn't long enough Sad

At like 10 degrees Fshe just wouldn't ignite. shot of ether in the intake was all it took. This is something I would only ever rcommend you do as a last means: engine off, let the glow plugs go for two or three cycles, then give a quick shot of ether from an aerosol can (starting fluid) into the air intake and start her up! Do not repeat if that doesn't do it in the cold, at high altitude in a non-turbo. peace!

Last edited by mixelpix on Mon Dec 15, 2008 3:08 am; edited 1 time in total

mixelpix

Joined: 14 Dec 2008
Posts: 29

Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 2:12 am Post subject:

John Galt wrote:

I won't be sharing any of the results of my extremely successful fuel blend research. Does the phrase "Casting Pearls Before Swine" mean anything?

Hey John,

It would be a severe loss to the alt fueling community if you were to keep those pearls to yourself. I for one have learned quite a lot from your posts about your experiences and especially your cold upflow techniques.

I can think of few other people from whom I would want their data, critical analysis and conclusions from besides you. Oink!

As for forum propriety and effective communication techniques, well, I am certainly no saint. Laughed pretty hard at your recent expletives. I do, however, think it is a problem to anecdotally apply the knowledge gained from experimenting with ONLY one liquid fuel and transposing it over to another or to blends.

Personal testimony is wonderful, and I wish I had the url but personal testimony (interesting) is very different than anecdotal speculations (boring imho). It seems to be especially problematic when someones anecdotes are only verified with second hand testimonial. That's where it becomes conjecture for me and that is as objectionable as personal attacks (of which I am certainly not free in giving or receiving either!) This does not mean, however, that I think anyone should volutarily or otherwise leave the discussion on account of either.

For example, someone recently posted that because acetone has a similar boiling point as the constituent blends of "gasoline" that acetone should therefore be expected to behave in all manners just like gas. That is anecdotal conjecture. Dangerous, too!

I find from a grounding in physics, chemistry and biology that anecdotal suppositions are, well the beating heart of the scientific method. So please keep them up and encouraging others to keep them grounded in the science of the physics and not the psychics.

On a forum which has no formalized editorial review process, well... just look to Wikipedia for a shining example of the Editorial process as it encounters an application of the esoteric arts by the eager layperson.

Me, I like forums like this which have moderators for individual forums and topics. In addition to mitigating inevitable conflicts, making clarifications and adding focus to the conversations they also serve an editorial function as much as the other members do. Really, quite a "social" and "commune"al effort. "Al"chemy in the ol' commune? Comomde? At least its not Al Quaeda Laughing

I digress. Please keep posting!

Best,
-Patrick

Last edited by mixelpix on Tue Dec 16, 2008 8:05 am; edited 3 times in total

240Volvo

Joined: 06 Mar 2008
Posts: 126
Location: New Jersey

Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 9:52 am Post subject:

Hey, Patrick My ride is a Volvo, not MB. Engine is a D21 made by Audi/VW. It is a 6 cylinder version of the VW engine of that era. Big, heavy tank with low KW/HP. Car weighs over 3800 lbs with an 87HP engine. That's flying low.... _________________ 1984 Volvo 240 diesel with a single tank Elsbett conversion: electric fuel filter heater, FPHE, glow plugs, and injectors. Also injector line heaters and block heater, running 20%kero/80%WVO winter blend.

240Volvo

Joined: 06 Mar 2008
Posts: 126
Location: New Jersey

Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 9:56 am Post subject:

John, I apologize if I caused you any offense with the use of the term "anecdotal." I was not referring to anything that you have posted, as I find your postings in such matters to be very clearly defined from your specific and well documented experience. Please continue to post your experiences. _________________ 1984 Volvo 240 diesel with a single tank Elsbett conversion: electric fuel filter heater, FPHE, glow plugs, and injectors. Also injector line heaters and block heater, running 20%kero/80%WVO winter blend.

mixelpix

Joined: 14 Dec 2008
Posts: 29

Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 2:33 pm Post subject:

240Volvo wrote:

My ride is a Volvo

LoL! goes to show what I know Wink

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